Trans specifications[]
There's been some recent edit warring between some editors. It's not that unexpected tho, considering how heated and controversial LGBT issues can be with people. There's mainly two issues in question:
- Should Erica's gender be listed as "Female" or "Female (trans)"?
- Should Erica's previous name "Eric" be listed *anywhere* on this article, even when it's talking about times when she was known as Eric?
Editor GioMetal argues that we should be "transparent", although I think it's rather obvious to anyone seriously reading the article that Erica is trans. I think we should be inoffensive to trans people, but everyone has different sensitivities when it comes to what's offensive or not. —AlexShepherd ツ 12:39, February 28, 2019 (UTC)
- Being transparent about her origins, not only serves on the wiki, for an in depth look at her story, but it is also correct. I will not edit anymore since it's a waste of time, as you will always remove the right gender (trans female) over your being "offended". But that is totally wrong for two reasons.
- 1: is incorrect and it goes against the designers will, since they decided to include a transgeder character, and made it also obivious.
- 2: Being offended for being transparent, for a fictional character that makes you like her instead of hating her, is totally insane.
- Lastly but not least, i am not an editor, neither you are, since you are willing to offuscate information with your own bias. GioMetal (talk) 21:55, February 28, 2019 (UTC)
- The thing is, saying "female (trans)" might be offensive to transpeople because it's almost implying she's not a real female, she's a trans female. I'm not offended by "female (trans)" although I find you editing her "sex" parameter to "male" offensive. You're so caught up in your opinions that you think there's "right" and "wrong" when in actuality, it's subjective. And I disagree with the claim that the developers tried to make it obvious in-game that Erica is trans. There are hints, but they can be easily misconstrued. And I am an editor of this wiki, and you not liking my edits doesn't change this fact. If you're going to leave, fine. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. I'm merely trying to begin an adult and mature conversation about this. —AlexShepherd ツ 03:35, March 1, 2019 (UTC)
In should probably be at least acknowledged under history that she underwent a sex change after high school.--FFMaverick01 (talk) 22:01, February 28, 2019 (UTC)
- Someone else removed that, although I don't find mentioning that too particularly offensive. —AlexShepherd ツ 03:35, March 1, 2019 (UTC)
I say we should probably re add it because it makes no sense not to have. https://catherine.fandom.com/wiki/Erica_Anderson?diff=20721&oldid=20679 I do agree listing (trans) female is not really needed, so long as it’s mentioned in the history. This editor basically took away all mentions of her ever being Eric.
They also removed “as she is preventing Toby from being in a relationship that could result in children.” I’m curious was this ever stated as the reason for her nightmares?--FFMaverick01 (talk) 04:32, March 1, 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if that was ever said. —AlexShepherd ツ 05:51, March 1, 2019 (UTC)
I didn’t remember it being said either, so I was curious where that came from. Apart from the kids thing and (trans) female, you we could probably readd everything else.--FFMaverick01 (talk) 06:07, March 1, 2019 (UTC)
So was that a agreement to revert back except the above mentioned?--FFMaverick01 (talk) 16:06, March 3, 2019 (UTC)
- I don't mind, but I don't feel like we have enough input from other editors at the moment, so it's still a slippery slope for me. —AlexShepherd ツ 09:48, March 5, 2019 (UTC)
Things such as SEX is not subjective. She can be a female, all right, but that doesn't change how she is born. If you fall in love with someone, doesn't matter the sex, and you find out he/she/whatever cheats on you, would you like it? That represents a lie. If you do you have problems. Straight males also like women, and they usually want children, it's nature you know. What if Toby wanted kids, thinking she can give those, but she can't? she is basically fooling him. I'm not transphobic, but for HONESTY, you should specify that. Also Erica has nightmares, which implies, she is a man, and not the other way around. The story specifies that the ones who have nightmares are all men, men that do not want to procreate, as boss SAID. Try to manipulate the thing however you want Shepard, this ain't a war of who is wrong or right in political matters, it is a matter of writing FACTS about games, NOT personal opinions. -- GioMetal (talk) 05:27, March 1, 2019 (UTC)
- I thought you were going. And whether or not people change their sex by doing surgery is totally subjective. There's people who think it does and people who think it doesn't. You edited Erica's sex to be male, which seemed very transphobic to me. Remember, implications are simply implications. Not truth. I'm not "manipulating" anything. I already told you that I wouldn't particularly mind having "female (trans)" or mentioning Erica went MTF surgery in her History, but I began this convo so we could talk out these concerns and sensitivities. I want to keep it "Female" for now so it is inoffensive as possible until we decide what to do. —AlexShepherd ツ 05:51, March 1, 2019 (UTC)
I suppose I'll throw my 2 cents in: I'd rather just keep the page as it is listing Erica as female, not "Male", not "female (trans)" and not "born male" As for the whole Erica was put into the nightmares argument, yes, she was put into the nightmares by the antagonist of the game, Vincent then proceeds to make a speech to the boss about how men and women aren't just sheep who simply fall into roles. One of the main points of the story is how the nightmare culling system Boss is involved with is wrong. It's also implied in the Venus art book that Boss put Erica into the nightmares out of some form of spite. LousyGoose (talk) 09:56, March 5, 2019 (UTC)
- Those are some nice points. Just because there might be a narrative or opinion in the game, it doesn't mean wiki editors are supposed to agree with it. We still don't know everything about the "curse" and who decides to become a victim of it. It seems to be Boss' doing, but this wiki isn't supposed to agree or reflect Boss' opinion (or his possible opinion that Erica is a man). Just because Boss may view Erica like a man, it doesn't mean a wiki should. It would actually be interesting, in the sense that the protagonist of the story (Vincent) and the antagonist (Boss) are both transphobic in a way, but Vincent overcomes it (in Full Body at least) and becomes a better human being. I'm curious, how does the art book imply Boss put Erica in the nightmares out of spite? —AlexShepherd ツ 10:42, March 5, 2019 (UTC)
It would take me a while to find the exact piece of text but going off when I translated the character pages about a year ago, the book discusses the relationship between Erica and Boss, how Erica seems to be rather blunt and dismissive of him, one of the instances highlighted is when Boss tries to tell the group that the reason people are told to count sheep is because of how it rhymes with sleep only for Erica to interrupt him and cut him off. As a result of how Erica treats him, it is implied Boss as an act of revenge decides to put Erica into the nightmares. Anyway, it seems whenever there is some sort of controversy around this transgender topic that comes up, it often resorts into some sort of debate about Erica. As someone who was not happy with how they treated Erica in the New C ending but wasn't massively offended or outraged since it was a very minor point in what was otherwise (at least for me) an amazing and perfect ending, I don't really see the point in having any serious debate about it: in the new C ending it's implied she's still going to transition, in literally all other scenes in the game outside of the new C ending Erica has already transitioned, I know it's already been said here but it's worth reiterating that it is mentioned throughout Erica's page that she is trans, so I really don't think there's a need to add anything to the end of "Female" in the gender section.LousyGoose (talk) 12:14, March 5, 2019 (UTC)
LousyGoose, you are either stupid, or deaf, because in the game, why Erica has nightmares is being told by boss.
It's not revenge!
Boss targets only MEN, and MEN who do not want to procreate. Don't lie to yourself, and don't spread lies.
It doesn't matter what your politics is, you are disrespecting the author's work.
GioMetal (talk) 15:44, March 5, 2019 (UTC)
- Please don't call people "stupid", it's an easy way to make yourself look like a jerk, and I'm not going to tolerate low-tier insults like that. Anyway, you know people can have multiple reasons for doing something, right? For example, people may exercise because they want to be healthy and look attractive physically. Not everything has to be one or the other. It's possible Boss dooms Erica because he views Erica as a man who doesn't want to procreate and as a revenge plot too. And stop claiming we're disrespecting the author's work when it's possible that Boss manually selects people to the nightmares. Just because Boss may view Erica as a man, it doesn't meant the writers of Catherine do. And even if they did, it doesn't mean a wiki should. Keep in mind, Catherine was released in 2011 when LGBT representation and concerns weren't that positive and popular. Hashino said "Full Body is a complete version of the concept from the previous game, which can be delivered because the sense of values has been diversified since 7 years ago." Full Body has things like Rin being gay-friendly and Vincent getting with a cross-dresser, so the values and opinions of the game's writers may have changed too. Not all authors are proud of their former work. I've even heard things like some of Vincent's transphobic lines to Erica (like saying she can't join a woman's wrestling team) may have removed. —AlexShepherd ツ 16:04, March 5, 2019 (UTC)
In Boss' mind Erica could be classified as male, yes. That does not necessarily mean that everyone else considers Erica to be male. I am not speading any sort of lies or trying to disrespect the work, I am merely explaining that in the venus mode art book it is implied that Boss sent Erica there because of how she treated him. Now we can actually have a structured debate about this or you can just throw a bunch of meaningless insults and ignore the points I'm trying to make.LousyGoose (talk) 15:56, March 5, 2019 (UTC)
I agree with keeping her as female, but I still think we should probably add the history part back even if we have to reword it slightly. A wiki job at the end of the day is facts and looking at the page now you really wouldn’t pick up that part of her backstory.~--FFMaverick01 (talk) 16:56, March 5, 2019 (UTC)
Sorry for the "stupid" but in my own opinion is not an insult, but sorry any ways.
And I'm not saying others classify Erica as a male, I'm quoting the game, Erica has nightmares for the same reason why every one else has those.
Also Erica is one of the best characters in games, it's sad that because of your opinions, people shouldn't know the WHOLE picture, but your own edited perspective on the situation.
And this is disrespecting others work, and not stating that Erica WAS a man, is lying.
Leave the FEMALE in the sex, but you should, for factual integrity, write about transition somewhere.
GioMetal (talk) 20:11, March 5, 2019 (UTC)
- How out-of-touch do you have to be to not know that 95 percent of human beings view "stupid" as an insult and will take offense if you call them "stupid"? And the idea that we're hiding anything is laughable. Everyone who knows the game with a decent knowledge knows Erica is trans. If you read the article (like the Full Body section and the Trivia section which talks about her being trans in tons of depth), it makes it clear Erica is trans. We're not hiding anything, and the idea that just because we don't have "ERICA IS TRANS" plastered everywhere on the article (such as her infobox) means we're somehow "lying", is silly. You could argue that it should at least be mentioned in History, but stop trying to say we're "hiding" it because that's not true. —AlexShepherd ツ 20:55, March 5, 2019 (UTC)
GioMetal you aren’t contributing anything to the conversation so just stop.
Now are we on agreement to readd history part? --FFMaverick01 (talk) 06:53, March 6, 2019 (UTC)